Monday, December 04, 2006

On having proof

I am dizzied by the fascinating discussions that are still going on in the last few posts. Until I have time to sort through all these great thoughts and offer a coherent response, I will note one high-level takeaway that I keep coming back to as I follow these discussions:


As I read these detailed back-and-forths about one Bible verse vs. another, examples of bad Christians vs. good Christians, whether or not this or that event really happened, I think of how odd this would all seem to people like my grandfather.

My 92-year-old grandfather is a kind, humble man and a brilliant engineer. He worked his way through his college by shoveling coal during the Great Depression. After receiving his civil engineering degree he went on to oversee the construction of large refineries throughout Mexico and South America for most of his adult life. Everyone who knows him remarks first about what a wonderful, generous soul he is, and this compliment is usually followed by noting his keen intelligence.

He's never been much of a church-goer and we'd never talked about God or religion, so I'd always assumed he didn't believe in God. One day back when I was still an atheist but starting to actually listen to the Christian point of view without being in "attack mode" every time, I casually asked him over dinner if he believed in God. I was surprised when he said yes. "But he's so smart!" I thought.

When I asked him why, he thought for a moment and said it's just always seemed obvious to him that there's a purpose to all this life that surrounds us, that it came from somewhere. As an engineer, he said, he could appreciate the grand system that is the universe, that the order to it all struck him as something that was intended. When I asked him some tough questions about his faith he would answer, occasionally only with "I don't know," but through it all he seemed undisturbed, maybe even a little amused, by all my questions.

I realized he's one of those people to whom God has always seemed "so obvious". The notion that God might not exist would be, to him, like saying gravity doesn't exist. Whereas to me it had always been "so obvious" that God was nowhere to be found, his "existence" nothing more than a mental crutch to help people avoid thinking about their own meaninglessness, it intrigued me that someone so intelligent and reasonable would find God's existence so...obvious.

I thought about the great men of science like Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus, Boyle and all the others who believed in God. Even Socrates and co. believed in "gods" in some form or another. When I read about these men and their personalities they often reminded me of my grandfather. They didn't cry about Jesus or shout about hellfire and brimstone, but rather they struck me as calm, reasonable men of great intellect to whom the existence of God just seemed to make sense.

But why?

I always assumed that the reason I didn't believe in God was because I was a more scientific-type thinker. My mind simply demanded proof before it would believe a theory to be true. And as nice as it would be to think that God and Mr. Jesus love me and want me to hang out with them and the pretty angels in heaven, the Christian story just seemed so bizarre and, really, absurd. These were some wild, often nonsensical claims that these Christians had, and I had not seen any proof that they were true.

But what, I thought, about these great men of science? What about my grandfather? Would I really be so bold as to say that my mind is more scientific than that of these men? Did they not also demand proof for their beliefs? I was perplexed.

That question has remained in my mind over the past few years as I've gone on this wild ride of discovering faith. And now, I think, I finally understand.

When the question of confirmation bias arose in the comments the other day I thought it was a fair point. I took a moment to examine my beliefs and see if perhaps I was "seeing" the results of my faith only because I want to convince myself that I have made a good decision here. I can say with complete honesty that I don't think this is the case. Of course perhaps my mind is playing another trick on me and I don't even realize what's going on, but I am being honest when I say that I don't think this is a mere psychological mechanism at work here.

But in the process of examining my situation one thing did strike me as odd: I still don't believe in the same way a lot of Christians seem to. I don't "feel" God, I usually feel like I'm talking to myself during prayer, a lot of times I'm really just going through the motions. (And, boy, "going through the motions" of being an orthodox Catholic is quite an endeavor.) So why do I do it?

It was then that I realized: because I've seen proof. It's not the sort of proof that I could demonstrate in a laboratory but, to me, it is proof nonetheless.

When I first started reading works by Christian apologists I was quite surprised at how reasonable they were, that their arguments in favor of God and Christ his Son were more involved than the one's I'd always heard (mainly "Shut up," and the old standby "You're going to hell"). I decided to take Pascal up on his wager, to follow St. Augustine on his advice to believe so that you might understand, and to just live my life for a while as if God did exist.

The results were striking.

There was no big "come to Jesus" moment, and even few times that I could say I "felt" that God was there, but it was as if some deep, powerful magnet had been activated within me that began pulling me in one direction.

This mysterious, powerful force was a compelling data point in favor of God's existence, but it wasn't proof enough. After all, it is hard to say objectively whether all the amazing "coincidences" that kept happening, all the doors that kept opening were from Something outside of myself or just the sorts of things that had always been there but I'd overlooked.

But something else started happening as well. The more I went through the motions of believing in God, the more the world started to make sense to me. The more I started to make sense to me. The picture of the world I'd had based on science alone now seemed incomplete. I still believed everything I'd learned from studying chemistry, physics and other sciences, but I now saw a whole other dimension to the world around me.

It was like the difference between looking at a picture of a double-fudge chocolate cake and actually having one in front of me to smell, touch and taste. Everything I knew before was still there, but I was now experiencing it at a whole different level full of wonder and richness.

I'd considered my life before this God experiment to be wonderful and full of happiness, but it now seemed disordered, confused and flat in retrospect. Little lingering "issues" faded away; parts of life that had seemed overwhelming were diffused and put in their proper place; I saw the psychological harm that certain actions that seemed totally innocuous in my atheist worldview had caused me; I was finally able to put a name to the deep stirrings within my soul I'd experience when listening to a profound piece of music or hearing about an act of evil; I understood why Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, what drove the efforts to build the great cathedrals; for the first time I felt the staggering depth of my potential as a human, a woman and a mother.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Also, there's no reason to detail every single thing that fell into place in my life when I lived as if there were a God since it's proof only to me. I cannot empirically demonstrate that any of this really happened, that it was real and not imagined.

All I can say is that I am not intentionally stating an untruth when I say that my life changed in a radical, profound way, inside and out, when I began giving God's existence the benefit of the doubt, and that I am certain it came from something outside of myself. When I have acted as if God exists, setting aside cynicism and approaching it with humility and an open heart, I have seen the results that you would expect to see if he did exist. When I have followed the prescription that it is said the Perfect Doctor has prescribed, it has indeed worked to heal, even when I was sure it wouldn't.

And I now think I realize how this mysterious God could seem so obvious to so many of the great minds of science, to brilliant men like my grandfather, whose intellects also demand proof. The laboratory in which the God experiment takes place is within the confines of the individual soul, and others can only observe the results, and not the mechanisms behind them. I cannot speak to the experience of former believers who saw no fruits of their belief in God other than to say that, based on my own experience, I have to wonder if they were conducting the experiment correctly, approaching it with humility and an open heart.

Because for me, and perhaps for all those believers among the ranks of the great minds of history, we also demand proof. And we have seen it.


Related Posts: Love and conversion; Why I'm Catholic; My conversion story through books

Labels: , , , , , , , ,

24 Comments:

Anonymous SteveK said...

Wow!

That's about all I can say after reading this. Such insight, such profundity, such maturity. You are a real thinker.

You get it, Jen. Just like your Grandfather, you get it. Blessings to you.

December 04, 2006 3:01 PM  
Blogger Dennis said...

This reflection is EXCELLENT. I'm tempted to steal large chunks of it for a homily one day.

Ready for the advanced questions?

Now that you've had this necessarily personal experience, what makes you think it has anything to do with "church?" And why the Christian formulation of things rather than the Hindu?

Yes, you're right, but why are you right?

Why is it that personal experience is not enough? Maybe it's enough to get a person moving, but it's not enough to sustain the relationship, I don't think. Every theology I've ever heard of that relies solely on personal experience has led to schism.

What makes Truth objectively true and not just a subjective phenomenon?

December 04, 2006 4:15 PM  
Blogger Jennifer F. said...

Dennis -

Well, when I speak of "living as if God did exist" and the results that followed, I am mostly referring to following the teaching of the Catholic Church. It has proven itself to me to be a conduit of some greater, objective truth. Steve G. once emailed a Chesterton quote that encapsulates this perfectly:

"This, therefore, is, in conclusion, my reason for accepting the religion and not merely the scattered and secular truths out of the religion. I do it because the thing has not merely told this truth or that truth, but has revealed itself as a truth-telling thing. All other philosophies say the things that plainly seem to be true; only this philosophy has again and again said the thing that does not seem to be true, but is true. Alone of all creeds it is convincing where it is not attractive; it turns out to be right, like my father in the garden."

Does that answer your question? If not, I'd be interested to hear what your answer is.

Thanks!

December 04, 2006 4:27 PM  
Anonymous Stevek said...

Every theology I've ever heard of that relies solely on personal experience has led to schism.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what other kind of experience can I have? Can I have an impersonal experience? I don't even know what that means. If I experience what you have experienced am I not experiencing it personally?

December 04, 2006 4:49 PM  
Anonymous Mike J said...

I read it. Now I've printed it to read again.

I've been going through my vocabulary of exclamatory terms. Whoa! Wow! OMG! Awesome! Beautiful! Profound! They all fail me.

Jen. You are amazing young lady. If I ever meet you, you get a big hug.

I ..... am at a loss for words.

December 04, 2006 5:06 PM  
Anonymous Jim McCullough said...

Jen--could I have permission to print this post and your response to Dennis for our RCIA? Each week we give them a different writing of some sort to reflect on at home (we call them "Articles of Faith") and your reflection would make a wonderful addition, and an especially helpful one for our more skeptically minded.
Jim McCullough, DRE
Our Lady of Grace Church
Greensboro, NC
You can email me at jmccullough(at)olgchurch(dot)org

December 04, 2006 5:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I actually got shivers down my spine at least twice while reading this!

Amen, Jen, Amen!

December 04, 2006 7:38 PM  
Blogger Dennis said...

SteveK,

The key to my question is the word "solely." Catholic experience is the experience of an authoritative interpretive community that, together, now and through history, has had and continues to have an experience of the risen Jesus Christ.

People have their own personal experience apart from the community usually run off to apostacy or schism. That's what I was kind of getting at.

December 04, 2006 7:59 PM  
Anonymous Tony said...

Jen, to quote from a title of a book, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

When I look at a beautiful cathedral, I ponder the architect, when I look at a masterpeice of art, I ponder the artist. When I look at creation, I ponder the creator.

December 04, 2006 11:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post. I wanted to add Francis Collins, to your list of prominent scientists who also believe in God. He is a genetist who was a part of the Human Genome Project. His book, Language of God, was published recently. I haven't read the book, just a review in First Things though.

December 05, 2006 9:11 AM  
Anonymous Eric said...

Jen, my reaction isn't as powerful as some to this post, only because I know exactly what you mean. While never a 'hostile' atheist, I was agnostic for quite a while. I also did grow up officially Catholic, but personally unconvinced.

I'm involved in the same experiement as you. Keep going. Never give up. It's likely that trials will come. Atheist questions will bother you more than they should, especially since you don't often get the 'feeling' that you long for. These are your opportunities to begin to step further away from your reliance on intellect and reason and further into the beauty of faith, hope and love. I don't mean that you should throw away reason, just realize its limits. Read Fides Et Ratio, if you haven't.

I have come to God as a man with no faith, but desperate for peace. I still struggle. I still fight with God over who knows best. My intellect understands a lot, but my heart understands little. When trouble comes, I'm often like Adam & Eve, running and hiding. But, I can see clearly that God is turning my heart from a 'heart of stone into a heart of flesh'. And I am happier because of it. The peace I seek isn't always there, but it is sometimes.

The other post on confirmation bias is very important in my opinion. It is true that, we often look for the 'good things' to try to see proof of God. But don't forget that even those things that we see as bad, are a part of God's plan. Look at Job. The devil had to ask permission of God to do anything to Job. And in the end, from these trials Job came to know God face to face, where before he had only heard of Him.

The life of a Christian is like the life of Christ. His was a life of poverty and suffering, as well as normal joy. But in all these things He had the joy of knowing that He was within the will of the Father and that the Father loved Him. Remember this when the trials come and you too can have joy even when all seems lost.

December 05, 2006 9:29 AM  
Anonymous SteveK said...

Dennis:
I see what you're getting at.

After thinking about it some more, I think we do have the ability to have an "impersonal" experience in the form of rational / logical thought.

We humans are a mixed bag of irrational / subjective emotions and faults but one thing is sure, we have the common ability to reason and actually know something as fact despite all those faults. Another important factor is we can know something without relying on modern emperical science.

If reason and logic don’t result in accurate knowledge then I suppose I’m free to doubt everything we claim to know. But nobody claims that.

We experience reason and logic personally but in a way that seems different than the other, flawed, personal experiences we have. This difference gives us the ability to know something without being able to prove it empirically or even explain it with words to the satisfaction of others.

If I manage to successfully explain it to others, what on earth compels the other person to even agree with me if not reason coupled with personal experience?

For me, reason, personal experience and, of course, church history tell me that God in fact exists. To doubt that fact would be like doubting that I love my family or doubting that I have free will.

Modern emperical science may try to tell me I don't really love my family or have free will. It may try to tell me that God doesn't exist, however reason and personal experience tell me that emperical science doesn't know what it's talking about.

December 05, 2006 11:28 AM  
Blogger Christian said...

As someone who loves reason, but loves God even more, I have to say I'm touched by your post. As a freshman in college, I feel like I'm constantly bombarded with messages against my God. And many of these messages seem to base their argument on reason!

Because of this influence, I find myself questioning God's existence at times. No longer can I simply just "have faith" and be content. But when I investigate my faith, reason always seems to point me towards God. To me, His existence is the only answer that makes sense.

But I still struggle. I'm so young and I know so little about God and about faith and about reason. I'm often confused. I feel ignorant and completely unable to articulate any of all this God stuff. Your post seems to do what I cannot: express all this in a reasonable, articulate, easy-to-understand way. So thank you for the spectaculr post.

God bless.

November 16, 2007 9:43 PM  
Anonymous BroKen said...

Rick from Brutally Honest sent me. Wonderful post. Keep it up.

January 29, 2008 9:13 PM  
Anonymous J dave G said...

Maclin Horton sent me. Beautiful stuff - thank you and God bless

January 30, 2008 12:04 PM  
Blogger Lady Lovas said...

Jen: I'm here via Barbara (mommylife) and I find your blog very interesting and touching.

I've been reading it eagerly since yesterday and I can get your words out of my mind. You are a very good writer and is very easy for me to understand you and to identify with you.

I'll be here, lurking around very often. I hope you don't mind my questions, as I have many.

I hope to get to know you more, as time goes by. Perhaps I'll send you an e-mail with a bit of my background, just so you know where I'm coming from with my questions. Would that be ok with you?

Thanks for sharing your life.

February 01, 2008 6:30 PM  
Blogger Lindsey said...

This is a wonderful story.

God bless.

February 05, 2008 6:46 AM  
Anonymous Pete said...

What a load of nonsense.

March 13, 2008 10:25 AM  
Anonymous JD said...

"I was finally able to put a name to the deep stirrings within my soul I'd experience when listening to a profound piece of music or hearing about an act of evil"

Theology is quite simple actually, and its true nature reflects very well on these things you have mentioned, among others.

Theology is the ideal-ization of the human mind and/or body (I include body because gods have had human-like forms in many religions, including OT Judaism on which Christianity is based).

You'll notice that those subscribing to theology have always striven for great achievement, whether it be in terms of art, architecture, morality, health, quality of life, etc.

God is the ideal, and we are to strive for it. After that, things started getting muddled up with various stories, prophets, etc.

March 14, 2008 3:31 AM  
Blogger Brian Zuelke said...

I am an electrical engineer and *was* a fallen-away Catholic for about five years before seven months ago.

It's been a real struggle to hold on to what originally brought me back to my Catholic roots, but mainly it was exactly what you've described in your blog post. Admittedly, I never took to atheism, but agnosticism -- i.e. saying it's just "too big to deal with so it doesn't matter" -- really kept me in a state of rebellion for a long time.

Thank you for writing this piece. A lot of it sounds exactly what I've experienced, but I've never been able to place it into a concrete form like you've done.

March 26, 2008 6:57 AM  
Blogger M3 said...

Of course everything makes sense with a God, as you say, but only because it provides a convenient explanation for the unexplained (and there's a lot of that around).

To me, I think only a human being could create such an evil, divisive, and fear mongering thing like religion.

A God with control over the universe wouldn't create such hate, horror and tragedy that is and has been the hallmark of human existence throughout history.

But I'll agree, it is much easier to get by when you can blame everything on a higher power.

March 30, 2008 8:20 PM  
Blogger madcap said...

In terms of personal experience, I assure you that I can perfectly well enjoy a profound piece of music, and am also affected by stories of depravity and horror, and yet I do not hinge such emotional reactions on belief in supernatural and capricious beings.

Indeed, I find such experiences all the more moving with the consideration that we have evolved to experience such beauty (and horror). Sometimes, of course, our wires get crossed, and our emotions are raised at seemingly innocuous events. Most of us have a natural aversion to insects, for instance, but not to kittens. Covering someone with a bunch of cuddly kittens does not seem to carry the same sort of moral weight as covering them with beetles (assuming, of course the person is not allergic). Belief in the Almighty as a source of morality does not seem to offer an explanation for these sorts of reactions, in the way it explain most people's reactions to romantic embrace or to rape and murder. The source, however, seems to be the same... we find insects repulsive because it was at some point in our distant past an evolutionary advantage to be repulsed by insects, just as it was an advantage to be repulsed by acts of wanton murder. (One expects further back it was an advantage to be attracted to insects as a bountiful source of protein.)

Whereas theists claim awe at the thought of an all-powerful deity having designed and created all things, I hold that it is evermore awesome to consider that these things arose from fundamental forces constrained by natural law, and evolved from them is our ability to appreciate the world and reflect upon it. We do not just represent individual beings looking upon the world... but also in a sense, we represent the evolved world looking upon itself.

March 31, 2008 2:54 AM  
Blogger Chris A said...

Wow! I found your blog, looking up a phrase in Google. You are quite an interesting read. I hope that comes across as a compliment in Blog-speak. Good for you! I too have a young one. We have an 11-month old Gabrielle, who has not let her daddy sleep much lately, Nevertheless, I shall stay updated as often as I can. God bless you and your little ones.

April 09, 2008 7:24 AM  
Blogger tamsyn said...

Whilst I appreciate that you have had a personal experience, and only you can decide for yourself that this is good enough proof to know in your mind that there is a God, this changes nothing at all for anyone else or even yourself.

When ever I meet a person who has faith I honestly feel sorry for them, in my opinion (and it is only that) faith is a cop out. Faith is, after all believing with out any evidence. It is so much easier for people to invent a god to provide answers and solutions, it is far more difficult to assess the world for ones self and come to a judgment based upon what one knows about the world and then what one can logically suppose. It is even harder to accept that we are going to die, decompose, we won’t go on and it all meant nothing. Human beings like logic, narratives that have a purpose, what is the point in a human story that counts for nothing. Believing that there is a god avoids the problems that existentialist thinkers faced, that drove Nietzsche insane. It’s far easier to believe in God than face what he did, but by believing in god you are moving further and further from the ‘uber-mansche’, why go back to the dark ages?

What troubled me the most about what you said was that you have chosen to follow an organized faith. Whilst your experience might have convinced you that there is some god like force, this should not have convinced you that the bible is correct? Why not believe in the Qur’an? What makes the bible’s stories more valid than the stories of Jesus in the Qur’an? In fact I would argue as an Ba Hons English Literature graduate that the Qur’an is probably more accurate than the bible when it comes to Jesus. After all the church had very good reasons to promote Jesus as a God, it made him more than a profit, but a living God, and this is something that they have used in their ‘sales pitch’. I can not align the stories of Jesus, the humble man, who had no possessions, who preached love, with the hierarchal catholic priests, draped in robes, in extravagant cathedrals, who need gold. It isn’t just the Catholics’ of course but all religions that put on a show. What they are selling you is something that they are only offering you after death, no insurance company in the world has ever managed to pull off that!

In my opinion once you have disregarded one aspect of a religion, you have to question it all. It is either all correct or it is all called into question. So is the world 6000 years old? Is God up there listening in on our thoughts like a telephone operator? Did a ghost impregnate a virgin? Did lord Xenu bring the souls of the Thetans to the volcanoes of Earth?

I doubt it.

I am not an atheist however, at least not today; this is me on an open minded day. I shall call myself an agnostic, I don’t know if there is a meaning to life. No one knows for sure. Of course faith is a personal thing, everyone is free to believe as they wish, but I can not stand when faith is presented as fact. I don’t know, nor does anyone else, and it is clear that no faith has got it correct yet, or we would all be joined up, coughing up our cash to that church and we would all be very happy and safe and liberated. We will only find out after we die, or we will find nothing at all.

Please do not take this as an attack on your faith, you have put your opinion out there, and as a public discussion I am just voicing an opposing view.

All the best.

April 14, 2008 1:45 PM  

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

I'm 31, have been married for four years, and have three children: a 3-year-old boy, 1-year-old girl, and a baby girl born in August 2007.

Name: Jennifer F.
Location: United States

When I was 26, I had never once believed in God, not even as a child. I was a content atheist and thought it was simply obvious that God did not exist. I thought that religion and reason were incompatible, and was baffled by why anyone would believe in God (I actually suspected that few people really did). After a few years in the Bible Belt, I became vocally anti-Christian. Imagine my surprise to find myself today, just three years later, a practicing Catholic who loves her faith (my husband and I both entered the Church at Easter Vigil 2007). This is the chronicle of my journey.




Click here to join




Powered by Blogger




Link to main page: The diary of a former atheist