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	<title>Comments on: Christians and austerity: does it matter?</title>
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		<title>By: Gabrielle LeBlanc</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-21769</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabrielle LeBlanc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, it does. Read Christ&#039;s words to the Laodicians, in the book of Revelations. Says it all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it does. Read Christ&#39;s words to the Laodicians, in the book of Revelations. Says it all.</p>
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		<title>By: The</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3568</link>
		<dc:creator>The</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think most serious Christians do separate themselves from society today. For people in my age group, simply taking an hour out of Sunday to go to Mass is unusual; my Catholic friends and I do so every week, daily when possible. Many people my age have multiple sexual partners; my Catholic friends and I are chaste until marriage. Many people my age take the highest paying job they can find and spend their income on material things; my Catholic friends and I discern God&#039;s will for us in our careers and give money to the Church and to charity when we are able. And so on. I don&#039;t think we need to look different to be different, and our actions and worldview certainly stand out from contemporary American society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think most serious Christians do separate themselves from society today. For people in my age group, simply taking an hour out of Sunday to go to Mass is unusual; my Catholic friends and I do so every week, daily when possible. Many people my age have multiple sexual partners; my Catholic friends and I are chaste until marriage. Many people my age take the highest paying job they can find and spend their income on material things; my Catholic friends and I discern God&#8217;s will for us in our careers and give money to the Church and to charity when we are able. And so on. I don&#8217;t think we need to look different to be different, and our actions and worldview certainly stand out from contemporary American society.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3497</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>We live in a society in America where it is controversial to wish someone a Merry Christmas as they obviously shop for presents on December 23rd.  It is difficult to not be influenced by that attitude: those who are &quot;on fire&quot; for God might supress their excitement just a tad, and those who are lukewarm might hide in the closet, and those who are unsure might completely lose the faith and the traditions.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We can&#039;t compare Christian culture in a secular country to Muslim culture in a Muslim country where societal pressures have you follow traditions whether you are die-hard or simply dead in faith.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also, die-hard public practices of faith have their price: extremism.  There aren&#039;t very many Christian suicide bombers or Christian posses out to get heretics.  As much as I lament the seeming lack of faith in America, I&#039;m not sure I want an opposite extreme where someone is ready to condemn me if I accidentally put bacon bits on my salad on Friday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We live in a society in America where it is controversial to wish someone a Merry Christmas as they obviously shop for presents on December 23rd.  It is difficult to not be influenced by that attitude: those who are &#8220;on fire&#8221; for God might supress their excitement just a tad, and those who are lukewarm might hide in the closet, and those who are unsure might completely lose the faith and the traditions.  </p>
<p>We can&#8217;t compare Christian culture in a secular country to Muslim culture in a Muslim country where societal pressures have you follow traditions whether you are die-hard or simply dead in faith.</p>
<p>Also, die-hard public practices of faith have their price: extremism.  There aren&#8217;t very many Christian suicide bombers or Christian posses out to get heretics.  As much as I lament the seeming lack of faith in America, I&#8217;m not sure I want an opposite extreme where someone is ready to condemn me if I accidentally put bacon bits on my salad on Friday.</p>
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		<title>By: lyrl</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3496</link>
		<dc:creator>lyrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have seen a couple of people speak of ascetisism as &quot;denying&quot; or &quot;giving up&quot; something, and Jen spoke of a &quot;willingness to experience discomfort&quot;.  The extreme end of it, yes.  But a more moderate ascetic (although ascetic may be the wrong word entirely here) just doesn&#039;t value material things as highly as other people, because they have more sustainable sources of happiness in their lives.  My earlier example of learning was just one, obviously, and Steve went into the topic in more interesting detail (I don&#039;t think my comment of learning having the potential to be a &quot;significant part of&quot; happiness conflicts with Steve&#039;s observation that it can&#039;t be more than 1/3).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A design magazine my husband and I subscribed to recent had an issue themed on small houses.  They had stories on families with not much land to build on, people who lived in small houses for sustainability reasons, and a story on a soldier in Afghanistan living in his government-provided living quarters of a shipping container.  I thought it was really neat.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The magazine got a &lt;i&gt;lot&lt;/i&gt; of negative mail from readers, however.  One person said that a family residing in an 800-square foot house (one of the larger houses in that issue) was &lt;i&gt;&quot;existing, not living&quot;&lt;/i&gt; and said the whole issue of the magazine was &quot;awful&quot;, &quot;garbage&quot;, and &quot;totally useless, downright ugly and depressing.&quot; I don&#039;t know this person&#039;s religious affiliation, but it saddens me that &lt;i&gt;anyone&lt;/i&gt; is so attached to the 5,000 square foot house as a status symbol that they believe the 80% of the world with no hope of such homes might as well not be living.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think a comparatively austere lifestyle is not a means of finding happiness.  It might be a result, so I can see where people would think austere societies are on to something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have seen a couple of people speak of ascetisism as &#8220;denying&#8221; or &#8220;giving up&#8221; something, and Jen spoke of a &#8220;willingness to experience discomfort&#8221;.  The extreme end of it, yes.  But a more moderate ascetic (although ascetic may be the wrong word entirely here) just doesn&#8217;t value material things as highly as other people, because they have more sustainable sources of happiness in their lives.  My earlier example of learning was just one, obviously, and Steve went into the topic in more interesting detail (I don&#8217;t think my comment of learning having the potential to be a &#8220;significant part of&#8221; happiness conflicts with Steve&#8217;s observation that it can&#8217;t be more than 1/3).</p>
<p>A design magazine my husband and I subscribed to recent had an issue themed on small houses.  They had stories on families with not much land to build on, people who lived in small houses for sustainability reasons, and a story on a soldier in Afghanistan living in his government-provided living quarters of a shipping container.  I thought it was really neat.</p>
<p>The magazine got a <i>lot</i> of negative mail from readers, however.  One person said that a family residing in an 800-square foot house (one of the larger houses in that issue) was <i>&#8220;existing, not living&#8221;</i> and said the whole issue of the magazine was &#8220;awful&#8221;, &#8220;garbage&#8221;, and &#8220;totally useless, downright ugly and depressing.&#8221; I don&#8217;t know this person&#8217;s religious affiliation, but it saddens me that <i>anyone</i> is so attached to the 5,000 square foot house as a status symbol that they believe the 80% of the world with no hope of such homes might as well not be living.</p>
<p>I think a comparatively austere lifestyle is not a means of finding happiness.  It might be a result, so I can see where people would think austere societies are on to something.</p>
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		<title>By: TaniaRocha</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3494</link>
		<dc:creator>TaniaRocha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I guess one should not _strive_ to stick out like a sore thumb. An example: if I were to go into a sort of competition to do the harshest sacrifices, to fast more days, and my motivation was out of pride, I would be doing a great harm to my soul and putting my salvation and my relationship with God at serious risk. But I guess trying to live life godly will always make believers stick out a little. Even just the fact that we try to love God, however imperfectly, and that the love of God is the most important think that ever happened to us, will make us noticed. I do not feel comfortable praying visibly in public places (except religious places), and I have several interests I talk about. I mean, I am not a monomaniac of religion. And I am not that saintly, unfortunately. Still, a friend once told me it&#039;s impossible not to notice I am a believer, because I &quot;can&#039;t NOT speak about God or faith or related matters every half hour or so&quot; (he was exaggerating!). And it is true. A teen in love can&#039;t help talking about the one he/she loves. A mother/father of a newborn baby can&#039;t help talking about the baby. I know what it was not to believe. The darkness, the confusion. I know what it was to believe that the best I could wish for would be some kind of equilibrium between pain and happiness, some kind of balance between good and evil. The changes that believing brought into my life are so big I can&#039;t help talking about God. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Austerity is not an end in itself, and hope I never fall into the trap of getting prideful of my austerity, should I ever become austere. But trying to change oneself to see life through God&#039;s eyes makes one see material things differently. Which can be weird when you don&#039;t pursue them and people feel they should help you with their counsel because, clearly, you are dim-witted as you do not feel that becoming a houseowner is the first priority in your life right now... (sorry, personal recent pet peeve)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess one should not _strive_ to stick out like a sore thumb. An example: if I were to go into a sort of competition to do the harshest sacrifices, to fast more days, and my motivation was out of pride, I would be doing a great harm to my soul and putting my salvation and my relationship with God at serious risk. But I guess trying to live life godly will always make believers stick out a little. Even just the fact that we try to love God, however imperfectly, and that the love of God is the most important think that ever happened to us, will make us noticed. I do not feel comfortable praying visibly in public places (except religious places), and I have several interests I talk about. I mean, I am not a monomaniac of religion. And I am not that saintly, unfortunately. Still, a friend once told me it&#8217;s impossible not to notice I am a believer, because I &#8220;can&#8217;t NOT speak about God or faith or related matters every half hour or so&#8221; (he was exaggerating!). And it is true. A teen in love can&#8217;t help talking about the one he/she loves. A mother/father of a newborn baby can&#8217;t help talking about the baby. I know what it was not to believe. The darkness, the confusion. I know what it was to believe that the best I could wish for would be some kind of equilibrium between pain and happiness, some kind of balance between good and evil. The changes that believing brought into my life are so big I can&#8217;t help talking about God. </p>
<p>Austerity is not an end in itself, and hope I never fall into the trap of getting prideful of my austerity, should I ever become austere. But trying to change oneself to see life through God&#8217;s eyes makes one see material things differently. Which can be weird when you don&#8217;t pursue them and people feel they should help you with their counsel because, clearly, you are dim-witted as you do not feel that becoming a houseowner is the first priority in your life right now&#8230; (sorry, personal recent pet peeve)</p>
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		<title>By: Melanie B</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3487</link>
		<dc:creator>Melanie B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It seems to me that if we Christians were to truly live our faith, even if we did all our fasting and praying in secret, not letting the right hand know what the left was doing, our faith and our love would so shine in all our actions and encounters that people would know there was something different about us. Even if the externals, the way we dressed, our material possessions, etc. were the same as our neighbors&#039;, if our interior dispositions were truly such that we were one with Christ, it would so transform us that no one could mistake us for anything else.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Asceticism is valuable, but it is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The true goal is union with God. There have been rich saints and poor saints, saints who practiced extreme asceticism and those who have lived quite comfortably. What makes them saints is their love of God. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I love the story Chesterton tells in his life of St. Thomas Aquinas about St. Thomas attending a banquet at the court of St. Louis, the king of France. One man was rich and had worldly power, the other was a mendicant monk; but they were more alike than different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that if we Christians were to truly live our faith, even if we did all our fasting and praying in secret, not letting the right hand know what the left was doing, our faith and our love would so shine in all our actions and encounters that people would know there was something different about us. Even if the externals, the way we dressed, our material possessions, etc. were the same as our neighbors&#8217;, if our interior dispositions were truly such that we were one with Christ, it would so transform us that no one could mistake us for anything else.</p>
<p>Asceticism is valuable, but it is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The true goal is union with God. There have been rich saints and poor saints, saints who practiced extreme asceticism and those who have lived quite comfortably. What makes them saints is their love of God. </p>
<p>I love the story Chesterton tells in his life of St. Thomas Aquinas about St. Thomas attending a banquet at the court of St. Louis, the king of France. One man was rich and had worldly power, the other was a mendicant monk; but they were more alike than different.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer F.</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3485</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you for all your comments! You&#039;ve all really helped me understand this issue better.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I hope to write more addressing specific comments, but unfortunately I&#039;m out of computer time for today. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for all your comments! You&#8217;ve all really helped me understand this issue better.</p>
<p>I hope to write more addressing specific comments, but unfortunately I&#8217;m out of computer time for today. <img src='http://www.conversiondiary.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: mrsdarwin</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3484</link>
		<dc:creator>mrsdarwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SteveG, Catherine, and Drusilla all have very thoughtful responses to the question of the relationship of austerity and Christianity.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict, in examining the Beatitudes, meditates on the verse &quot;Blessed are the poor&quot;.  That&#039;s from Luke; Matthew&#039;s account says &quot;Blessed are the poor in spirit&quot;.  Benedict reflects on the tradition of poverty in the scriptures and emphasizes that material poverty in  itself does not bring salvation.  The value of great ascetics is recognized for their example to the world and to the Christian community of detatchment from the things of this earth.  However, being &quot;poor in spirit&quot; transcends the material to be a spiritual asceticism -- which does often find its expression in a material simplicity. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Benedict describes the poor in spirit: &quot;These are people who do not flaunt their achievements before God.  They do not stride into God&#039;s presence as if they were partners able to engage with him on an equal footing; they do not lay claim to a reward for what they have done.  These are people who know that their poverty also has an interior dimension; they are lovers who simply want to let God bestow his gifts upon them and thereby to live in inner harmony with God&#039;s nature and word&quot; (p. 76).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Excellent book!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveG, Catherine, and Drusilla all have very thoughtful responses to the question of the relationship of austerity and Christianity.  </p>
<p>In Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict, in examining the Beatitudes, meditates on the verse &#8220;Blessed are the poor&#8221;.  That&#8217;s from Luke; Matthew&#8217;s account says &#8220;Blessed are the poor in spirit&#8221;.  Benedict reflects on the tradition of poverty in the scriptures and emphasizes that material poverty in  itself does not bring salvation.  The value of great ascetics is recognized for their example to the world and to the Christian community of detatchment from the things of this earth.  However, being &#8220;poor in spirit&#8221; transcends the material to be a spiritual asceticism &#8212; which does often find its expression in a material simplicity. </p>
<p>Benedict describes the poor in spirit: &#8220;These are people who do not flaunt their achievements before God.  They do not stride into God&#8217;s presence as if they were partners able to engage with him on an equal footing; they do not lay claim to a reward for what they have done.  These are people who know that their poverty also has an interior dimension; they are lovers who simply want to let God bestow his gifts upon them and thereby to live in inner harmony with God&#8217;s nature and word&#8221; (p. 76).</p>
<p>Excellent book!</p>
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3483</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Here, here!  Well said Drusilla!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, here!  Well said Drusilla!</p>
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		<title>By: Drusilla</title>
		<link>http://www.conversiondiary.com/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html/comment-page-1#comment-3482</link>
		<dc:creator>Drusilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gator1217.hostgator.com/~fulwiler/2007/08/christians-and-austerity-does-it-matter.html#comment-3482</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Believers would stand out from non-believers.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;I don&#039;t think the idea of an afterlife or existence of God would cut it - initially, yes, but like that new big-screen TV the happiness derived from these ideas would wear off with their newness.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The thing that is missing is love. Austerity only has value if it is also love. Only love prevents those things that attract us from wearing off. And it can&#039;t be an idea. Love must be a reality, an event that occurs in our lives: the new commandment is to love one another as Christ has loved us. If we do so, we will stick out like a sore thumb, we will impress, we will attract both new converts and persecution.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The real need is to evidence the encounter with Someone so wonderful He has enabled us to love in a radical way. For it to be the obvious reality of our lives that His love fills us with joy that is not dependent on our circumstances. To live so that others look at us and say, &#039;They have something! I want that too!&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Believers would stand out from non-believers.</i></p>
<p><i>I don&#8217;t think the idea of an afterlife or existence of God would cut it &#8211; initially, yes, but like that new big-screen TV the happiness derived from these ideas would wear off with their newness.</i></p>
<p>The thing that is missing is love. Austerity only has value if it is also love. Only love prevents those things that attract us from wearing off. And it can&#8217;t be an idea. Love must be a reality, an event that occurs in our lives: the new commandment is to love one another as Christ has loved us. If we do so, we will stick out like a sore thumb, we will impress, we will attract both new converts and persecution.</p>
<p>The real need is to evidence the encounter with Someone so wonderful He has enabled us to love in a radical way. For it to be the obvious reality of our lives that His love fills us with joy that is not dependent on our circumstances. To live so that others look at us and say, &#8216;They have something! I want that too!&#8217;</p>
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