Interview with an exorcist, Part II

You asked, Fr. Thomas Euteneuer answers! Here’s Part II to our interview about exorcism and his new book, Exorcism and the Church Militant. (Part I is here.)

Q: You mentioned that secular professionals are sometimes involved in the exorcism process. What kind of reactions do you typically get from them? Do they think all this exorcism stuff is crazy, or do they agree that something supernatural is going on?

It is more accurate to say that secular professionals are involved in the consultation process but not usually in the exorcism sessions themselves. However, I have had psychologists involved in the prayer sessions, and they are always in admiration of the distinct and quite potent way that the Church has to heal people through ritualized prayer. This is spiritual healing, not psychological healing. They discover, sometimes to their amazement, that science doesn’t have all the answers or resources for healing the human person. When there is a demonic problem it will often block the individual’s psychological or medical healing, but after the person is liberated from his demons, the other types of healing are able to bear more fruit. By and large, any time I have had a psychologist join me in a prayer session they are awed by the power of God to heal a person at the core of his being.

On a related note, one other exorcist I know of invited a couple of (agnostic) journalists into a prayer session and they were just struck speechless with their inability to explain what was going on. Only faith can explain it fully. While the journalists did write about their encounter, the Church discourages any kind of publicity of such private matters, for the sake of privacy and the dignity of the person. In the case of priests who talk about this publicly like I do, it is important just to share information and stories that cannot be traced back to the individuals who are the subjects of the prayer sessions. It is done exclusively to build people’s faith.

Q: What about non-Catholics or non-Christians? Could a priest help them with demonic possession?

Yes. There is no prohibition to exorcising those who are not members of our faith or of no faith at all. In fact, if it is done correctly, an exorcism process can be a moment of evangelization for those who do not have explicit faith in Christ or the Catholic Church. Conversion to the Church is not a condition for receiving exorcism either. “What you have received freely, give freely,” says the Lord, but every exorcism is a true witness to the power of Christ that operates through His Church.

Q: I’ve noticed that you tend to get an extremely negative reaction when you say that the Harry Potter books are dangerous. Some folks hear that and think, “I know a lot of people who read Harry Potter and remained strong in their faith, or have even been inspired by the message of good conquering darkness” — and, conversely, they don’t know anyone who has read these books and gotten involved in the occult, so it doesn’t ring true for them. What would you say to that?

I would encourage anyone who holds the beliefs mentioned above to read the articles by Michael O’Brien on Harry Potter and other occult phenomena. The best one is Harry Potter and the Paganization of Children’s Culture. He has recently come out with a book of a similar name. He holds that Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling writes out of a completely pagan worldview, and even though there may be some points of contact between paganism and Christianity (some basic notions of good and evil, for example), the totally pagan mindset of the Harry Potter 400-million-book-onslaught is what is dangerous.

The Harry Potter series will not make a person demon possessed; it will, rather, normalize the existence of demons and infuse the occult language and imagery that celebrates them into the minds of the young. It is absolutely not true to say that this stuff doesn’t get people involved in the occult. Go and look at the Harry Potter section in Barnes and Noble and see what occult and witchcraft phenomena this series has spawned for our youth.

It is also my contention that the vampire craze is a direct result of a decade of Harry. Pretty soon the Harry Potter generation, who are now a decade older, get bored with the childish “Hogwart School of Witchcraft and Wizardry” and spell casting, and they need a little more “mature” form of occult entertainment.

Q: What about other books that involve magic? A lot of people say, for example, that C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia brought them closer to Jesus, even though the stories involve magic, spells, etc. What is your response to that?

Following from what I said above, I believe that the infiltration of pagan images and occult themes into the minds of our children has a devastating effect on them.

Tolkein’s and Lewis’s works come entirely out of a Christian worldview, despite the use of magic and some occult powers. In Lewis and Tolkein, the use of these preternatural powers is not ambiguous like it is in the Harry Potter series, and the figures who use them are either totally good and Christ-like (Gandalf, for example, becomes a Christ figure in his use of power to heal and protect people from evil) or they are totally evil and use power like demons do to harm and control (i.e., Saruman and Sauron).

Q: I read in your bio that you participated in the Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program in college, attended basic training at Quantico, Virginia and graduated at the top of your Company. Has this experience in the Maries helped you at all in your role as an exorcist?

It gave me a strong sense of the Church Militant — that still remains for me a defining image of how the Church should operate in confronting the evils of our day. I believe that if more Churchmen had a fighting spirit, the power of evil would not be so virulent in our culture. It is true to say that when the Church is weak, all of society is weak. By extension, when church leaders are weak the Church is much less able to be the conscience of society.

Q: You mention in the book that in some sense Satan and demons are disempowered now. Were demons more powerful before Jesus’ birth and death?

Very much so. There’s a great book by Fr. Jean Danielou, a Jesuit priest, called The Angels and Their Mission. He describes angels being sent into the world to try to lead men to God. However, because of the tendency of human nature to be corrupt, the demons won by leading men into idolatry, and only Christ could set it right. The power of Christ against evil has been delegated to the Church — he sent disciples out to heal the sick, preach the good news and cast out demons — but the Church needs to operate as the Church Militant in order to restrain the power of evil in the world. If it doesn’t, the power of evil grows.

Thanks again to Fr. Euteneuer for taking the time to chat with me! Again, if you’d like to learn more about this subject, I highly recommend his book, Exorcism and the Church Militant.

Interview with an exorcist, Part I

I finally got a chance to catch up with Fr. Thomas Euteneuer and chat with him about exorcism and his new book, Exorcism and the Church Militant. Almost all of the questions were suggested by readers in the comments and emails I received in response to this post. I hope you enjoy hearing his answers as much as I did!

Q: As I read your book, my impression was that exorcism is essentially a form of prayer. Is that right?

Yes.

Q: Some people hear about exorcisms and ask: Why is a priest and all the ritual necessary? Why can’t a person just have his friends pray for him, or pray to cast out the demons himself?

It is correct that people can pray spontaneously against the power of evil. What the Church reserves to itself are the worst cases; in these worst cases you need a liturgical form of public prayer and a consecrated professional whose work is spiritual warfare. When you’re dealing with a very bad guy (a strong demon), you don’t just politely invite him to leave. That’s not going to work. The liturgical form of prayer has great power because it is a common prayer, the prayer of the Church — not just an individual or group prayer. In it, the Church commands the demon to leave. It is backed up by the apostolic authority of the bishop, delegated to the Church from Christ himself.

Q: In another interview you made the comment that “the power of the ritual is based on the faith you bring to it.” Could you elaborate on that statement?

The ritual itself, because it is the Church’s ritual, has the Church’s faith behind it. Even if the exorcist didn’t believe in its power, it somehow would be effective because of the faith of the Church. Having said that, if a person brings his own faith to the ritual and believes in the authority of Christ, it adds an incredible amount of power for expelling a demon.

Q: One thing that is clear from your book is the power of the name of Jesus and how much it torments demons. Is this a word that they can say (e.g. in a disrespectful way), or is in unpronouncable to them? Does the name torment them in and of itself, or only when said respectfully by believers?

The sacred and holy Name of Jesus is “the Name to which every knee must bend in the heavens, on the earth and under the earth” (Phil 2:10-11). It is feared by demons always. They normally would not say It or want to hear It but they must submit to any command that is issued in His Name. The only exception is if they are given a command to say His Name as their sign of departure indicating that their power has been totally vanquished. I have ordered demons to say, “Jesus is Lord” as they depart from a person and go to the Foot of the Cross. It is also odious to them when believers speak the sacred Name respectfully or in a word of Scripture or some liturgical prayer. Above all, the Name of Jesus represents the authority of God over the power of evil, and they must obey the unworthy minister who wields it to cast them out.

Q: I’ve heard crazy stories about the types of things that happen in exorcisms: objects flying off of shelves, the possessed person levitating, etc. How often do you encounter things like that?

Not often. Most of the dramatic stuff you see is Hollywood’s presentation of exorcism, and of course Hollywood has a vested interest in dramatizing the encounters. The movie versions of exorcism all wildly exaggerate the power of the devil and the drama that takes place in an actual exorcism. I don’t deny that some of the exorcisms can be dramatic, but the vast majority of them are pretty banal.

Q: How, then, can you tell the difference between true possession and someone who is mentally ill, or perhaps just acting?

The exorcism ritual itself teaches us to look for three criteria as signs of true possession, although the list is not exhaustive:

1. Speaking in esoteric languages
2. Superhuman strength
3. Occult knowledge (i.e. revealing something in a possessed state that the person would have no human way to know about)

One or more of these phenomena usually indicate a state of possession. Fully possessed people who exhibit these signs are fairly rare but they are out there. In the cases where these elements are displayed to a lesser extent, we work with professionals to determine how much of it has a natural origin and how much has a spiritual origin. We don’t automatically assume possession just because a person says he has a demon.

People with demonic problems usually have some woundedness or opening in their character to which a demon is attached and so it is completely possible that a demon and natural human problem can co-exist in the same person. For that reason, it is usually best for afflicted persons to undergo a two-track healing program of spiritual and psychological healing at the same time. That way both the human and spiritual dimensions are being addressed at the same time and healing takes place more quickly.

Q: So do you invite secular professionals to be part of the process?

Yes. Medical or psychiatric professionals can identify the medical dimension of a problem and help the exorcist to see the spiritual side of it more clearly. It is always better to work with medical professionals who have faith and who believe in the devil.

Q: You must be on the receiving end of a lot of spiritual attack. I’d imagine that it’s critical to the work that you do that you stay very strong in your faith. Do you have any tips for the rest of us?

The two most important things are to remain very humble, and to stay in a state of grace. The heart of humility is accountability — one must seek advice, seek counsel, and ultimately submit to the authority of the Church. Remaining in a state of grace is that spiritual armor that St. Paul talks about at the end of his Letter to the Ephesians. It’s critical to anyone’s life, especially in spiritual warfare.

I’ll post the second part of this interview later this week. If you would like to know more about this subject, I do highly recommend Fr. Euteneuer’s book. One of the things I like about it is that it is thorough without being too interesting: One problem with some books about dealing with evil is that they make it tempting to become fascinated with the more unusual aspects of dark forces — and, needless to say, it’s not a great idea to sit around and focus on evil. Fr. Euteneuer’s book thoroughly answers common questions in a straightforward way that is interesting yet doesn’t make the subject seem exotic or glamorous.

I hope you enjoyed this interview; the next part will be up in a few days. Thanks again to Fr. Euteneuer!

One couple’s journey to adopting HIV-positive children (Part 3 of 3)

I am honored to post the final installment of my interview series with a couple named Kimberly and Jimmy who are adopting HIV-positive children from Ethiopia. If you haven’t read Part 1 or Part 2, see the links above.

Q: What kind of life expectancy do your children have?

The beautiful thing about this question is I don’t have an exact answer for you. At least not in the way that people with HIV/AIDS used to get answers — answers along the lines of “you have a few months.” Or one year. Or a few years. Now, treatment is getting so much better, medical advancements are occurring so rapidly, that the medical community just doesn’t know for sure how to quantify life expectancy.

The best general answer for HIV-positive people on medication is now “near normal lifespan.” Which amazes me. I mean, how often is HIV still thought of as the worst possible disease you could get? And yet, in reality, HIV is not a death sentence but a chronic, manageable disease, one that’s often considered more treatable than Type 1 diabetes. In fact, one recent study projects that a 20-year-old HIV-positive person starting antiretroviral (ARV) therapy today can expect to live, on average, to the age of 69.

Why don’t more people know this?! I’m not sure, except that it’s perhaps a testament to the power of stigma — stigma that needs to be done away with, once and for all.

Q: What kinds of reactions do you get when people hear that you’re adopting HIV-positive children?

I will misappropriate a metaphor here because it describes so well what people’s first reactions typically are: “shock and awe.”

Shock is usually the predominant reaction, as most people simply have no idea that adoption of children with HIV is possible or that anyone would want to do it. The (largely) unspoken question that arises most frequently is “Why would you want to adopt a child who is going to die?” Of course, my husband and I know that with access to medical treatment here in the U.S., our children most likely will not die but live long, relatively healthy lives. Yet the vast majority of people, even educated people, are unaware of the facts about HIV and HIV treatment, and are thus simply stunned by the thought of adopting children with HIV.

Of course, there are those few people whose shock turns nasty. I’ve read plenty of blisteringly awful comments on the internet, but thankfully, we’ve had to deal with very little deliberate vitriol in real life. Because so many people are ignorant about the facts of HIV, most negativity we’ve encountered about adopting HIV-positive children stems simply from ignorance, not from prejudice. For example, “Could your child infect my child in school/at the playground/etc.?” (No. HIV cannot be transmitted through hugging, kissing, touching, sharing toys or objects, etc. Unless our children are doing IV drugs together on the swingset, transmission is simply not possible.) “Won’t you be a burden on the taxpayers?” (No. Before you’re allowed to adopt, parents must document their financial situations in full and prove that their health insurance will cover their children.) And so on. We’re always happy to inform people of the truth because it should alleviate their concerns. However, when people choose not to believe the truth, when stigma overrides fact, evidence, and all the best medical science of the last two decades, it can be frustrating.

Also frustrating, but in a different sort of way, is the “awe” reaction that we often get. In a sense, it’s just as uncomfortable as the shock reaction. Once people hear that we’re adopting children with HIV, most folks then view our adoption as some kind of extraordinary act. Even after we’ve educated them about HIV and how we’re not adopting children that will die in a year, people still react with amazement and a gush of, “Oh, I could never do that!” — as if my husband and I must be made of some stern stuff beyond the average mortal.

This could not be further from the truth! We are ordinary people — not wealthy, not powerful or influential, not even especially pious or exceptionally faithful. (I am no Mother Theresa, I assure you — and my husband would no doubt assure you of that, as well!) Rather, as I see it, we are ordinary people to whom God presented an extraordinary opportunity. And we ran with it.

Which is not to say that we’ve always run the race smoothly and straightly. While I have never doubted our call to adoption, throughout this process I have regularly doubted God about how the details would ever work out! Even when He has given me ample evidence of His faithfulness, I often find myself like the father of the spirit-possessed boy in Mark 9, crying out to Jesus, “I do believe; help my unbelief!”

And, thank God, He always does. Over and over again, He has shown us that we can rest easy in His character and how He wants us to live: fearlessly. “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him…There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear” (I John 14:16 & 8a).

Q: Are there any final thoughts you’d like to leave us with?

If my husband and I — everyday people who believe, yet too often need help with their unbelief! — have managed to stay the course, why not others?

More than anything else, I would like this interview to be an encouragement to other ordinary believers to pursue the extraordinary opportunities God presents them with. If that’s adopting a child with HIV, wonderful! But even if it’s not, even if your journey has nothing to do with adoption or orphaned children, my prayer is that you would feel encouraged to follow it.

Because I’ve learned that while perfect faithfulness should be what we all aspire to, one-foot-in-front-of-the-other faithfulness is often the best I can give, and thankfully, it’s often enough. You do not need to be extraordinary; you just need to keep going. As I daily remind myself, I may not know where the path I walk is headed, I may be fearful along the way, but I know Who walks beside me. And all roads walked in faithfulness lead to Him.

A huge thanks to Kimberly and Jimmy to sharing their lives with us. Please keep them in your prayers, and if you enjoyed this series, please leave a comment to let them know!

Photo of African AIDS orphans by interplast

One couple’s journey to adopting HIV-positive children (Part 2 of 3)

I am delighted to post Part 2 of my interview series with a couple named Kimberly and Jimmy who are adopting HIV-positive children from Ethiopia. Make sure you’ve already read Part 1 since some of Kimberly’s answers here refer to what she wrote there.

Q: At the end of Part 1 you were saying that when the idea of adopting HIV- positive children first came to mind, you tried to forget about it. What happened next?

I tried to thrust it out of my mind, but I couldn’t. The idea of adopting a child with HIV clung to me. Finally, the sheer persistence of these thoughts lead me to bring up the subject with my husband. I told him I was uncertain about the idea but asked him to pray about it. He agreed (albeit somewhat reluctantly). We prayed about it ourselves for a while before approaching the rest of our family and friends asking them to join us in prayer.

Remember what I spoke about last time, when I said that the idea of adopting an older child really freaked out our friends and family? Well, “hit the fan” does not even begin to describe the reaction when we asked friends and family to pray about us adopting a child with HIV. Suffice it to say that some people were extremely upset. Nevertheless, we persisted in asking them to pray for wisdom and discernment for us, that we would all discern God’s will, no matter what it was. And, to their credit, they did pray for God’s will to be revealed to us all…although surely that wouldn’t include a child with HIV, right?!

After months — at least eight months that we all spent praying, talking, and researching — we realized that God’s will was not for us to adopt a child with HIV…it was for us to adopt two children with HIV. In February, we went back to our adoption agency where our application had been on hold and requested only HIV-positive siblings. We had a referral within a few weeks, and it’s been a blissful, crazy, frustrating, wonderful whirlwind ever since.

All that to say that I truly believe that Essayas was a part of God’s plan for our adoption, though not in the way we had first thought. Now, looking back, I can see how God used him to open our family’s eyes to the beauty and potential of adopting a child that was not “the norm,” not a little girl as young and healthy as possible. Because if we had come straight out of the gate saying, “We’re going to adopt siblings! Older siblings! And one’s a boy! And they both have HIV!” I don’t know that our family would have ever come around. Heck, my husband and I wouldn’t even have considered that kind of situation when we were first exploring adoption. I’m afraid we all would’ve been too paralyzed by fear to use the power, love, and sound minds that God had given us!

But God used Essayas to open our eyes and help us break from our fears. First, it was openness to gender — maybe we could adopt a boy and not just a girl like we’d always thought. Then, maybe, we could adopt an older child. Piece by piece, as we kept praying and seeking God’s plan for our family — even though it was painful seeking! — we could feel God stretching our minds and hearts to accept, and eventually desire, things we had never even conceived of on our own.

And now we are so blessed to be welcoming a precious brother and sister into our family! They are gorgeous and joyful and seem to have such sweet spirits. We can’t wait to meet them and bring them home soon!

And happily, my husband and I are not the only people who can’t wait to meet them. Our entire family and all our close friends have rallied around us in a way that can only be described as miraculous. We knew that disclosure was going to be a big issue for us, but after much prayer and thought, we decided to be completely open with people about the children’s HIV status. And people have been amazingly supportive — not merely tolerant but thoroughly excited to meet these children and play a part in their lives. The support we’ve received has been astounding and humbling and beyond what we could have ever wished for, even in our wildest dreams.

A year ago, when I was sunk in despondency over our loss of Essayas, I wouldn’t even have been able to imagine where God would take us — and whom He would take us to! — in the months that followed. It’s been one of the most emotionally painful years of my life, but suffice it to say that I have learned anew that God’s ways are not my ways, His thoughts are not my thoughts, and He often uses the most unlikely of vessels — 12-year-old boys, for instance! — to display the surpassing greatness of His power. Praise the Lord!

Q: Do you worry about contracting HIV from your children?

No. Despite persistent myths to the contrary, HIV is actually fairly difficult to contract. HIV has never been transferred through casual contact or everyday household interactions. You can share toilets, eating utensils, toys, food, and drinks, with zero worry about transmission.

(For perspective, the risk even through sexual contact is far smaller than people think. A single episode of unprotected vaginal intercourse with an HIV-infected person presents a risk of 1 per 500 to 1000 [0.1 - 0.2%].)

Plus, once our children are on medication, the levels of HIV in their bodies will likely be so low as to be undetectable. On average, only one week after beginning HAART (highly active antiretroviral therapy), 90% of all HIV in the body is gone; within one month, 99% is gone. And as these levels of HIV in the body lower, so, too, does the risk of transmission.

Nevertheless, we intend to follow universal precautions with our children. Though these precautions are overly cautious, we want to teach our children to be careful when handling blood, both for others’ sakes and their own. Most workplaces now require the use of universal precautions, so this is an important life skill, in addition to a precautionary measure.

Q: What about health insurance? Will your kids be covered?

Yes. There are essentially two facets to this question: does insurance cover HIV? And does insurance cover adopted children? First, regarding HIV, if you are on an employer-sponsored group health insurance policy (and we are), your insurance company is required by law to cover HIV. However, individual policies are not always required to cover HIV. If you’re not on a group policy, you’d need to check with your insurance company to see if you’re covered.

As to the second part of the question, in most situations, it’s required that insurance companies cover adopted children in the same way as biological children. There are a few rare exceptions, though, and you need to check with your individual insurance company for details. (For more info, check out this article and this article.)

Q: What are some good resources for people who want to know more about adopting HIV-positive children?

Project HOPEFUL is a good place to start. It’s a nonprofit whose mission is to encourage, educate, and enable parents adopting children with HIV/AIDS. Chances by Choice is another nonprofit with a similar mission. They also features a list of specific waiting children with HIV; the “Angels With HIV” section of Reece’s Rainbow also features bios and photos of waiting children.

Also, the websites Positively Orphaned and Positively Adopted both serve as excellent compendiums of interviews, blogs, websites, news stories, and medical reports related to the adoption of children with HIV.

Most of all, if you feel drawn to the idea of HIV+ adoption but overwhelmed by the enormity of the HIV/AIDS epidemic or by the sheer number of orphaned children throughout the world, let me encourage you not to let your research overwhelm you. As Edward Everett Hale’s words remind us, “I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. What I can do, I should do and, with the help of God, I will do.”

photo of orphaned children by Common Threadz

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